Join us as Destaney Wishon, a trailblazer in Amazon PPC marketing, sits down to share her meteoric rise in the eCommerce sphere. Her story isn’t just about mastering click-throughs and conversion rates; it’s a narrative woven with the threads of challenges, triumphs, and the evolving role of women in this industry. Destaney’s practical Amazon PPC tips are a goldmine for anyone looking to excel in the Amazon selling space.
We also take you behind the scenes of choosing the right PPC agency for your Amazon business. Navigating the complexities of today’s ad metrics requires more than a superficial understanding of the platform—it demands a strategic partnership with experts who eat, sleep, and breathe Amazon’s Ad Console. In this candid exchange, we dissect the importance of education in the craft of PPC, the unforeseen benefits of handling diverse accounts, and how free audits can sometimes be the key to scaling your brand. Find out why a deep dive into agency selection could make all the difference for your advertising strategy.
We wrap up with an exciting discussion on the newest tools and tactics shaping Amazon advertising, from Amazon’s Marketing Cloud to the ethical landscape of competitive PPC strategies. Destaney and Kevin also contemplate the seismic shifts AI is creating in search and ad creatives, forecasting how these changes might dictate future marketing campaigns. Stay tuned for a wealth of knowledge that might just revolutionize your approach to connecting with consumers on the world’s largest online marketplace. Whether you’re a seasoned marketer or just starting out, this episode is packed with the kind of insights that can turn advertising into an art form.
In episode 388 of the AM/PM Podcast, Kevin and Destaney discuss:
04:27 – Women’s Representation in the Amazon Space
06:21 – Agency Selection and Amazon Advertising Expertise
09:49 – PPC Audit Qualification Process
17:59 – Amazon Advertising Opportunities and Challenges
18:51 – Common Misconceptions in Amazon Advertising
21:55 – Targeted Marketing Strategies for Brands
29:14 – Driving Sales Strategy for Amazon Brand
35:08 – Amazon Advertising Strategy Insights
37:10 – Analyzing Brand Metrics for Industry Comparison
40:11 – Cost Per Acquisition and Lifetime Value
43:26 – Analyzing Amazon Advertising Strategies
47:05 – Impact of AI on Amazon PPC Strategy
50:21 – Amazon’s AI-Driven Advertising Strategies
57:30 – Amazon Advertising and Stage Presence
59:50 – Kevin’s Words Of Wisdom
Transcript
Kevin King:
Welcome to Episode 388 of the AM/PM Podcast. This week, my guest is Destaney Wishon. Destaney is one of the top PPC experts when it comes to selling on Amazon, and we dive deep on a lot of different topics. You’re gonna have a notepad ready, because you’re gonna be taking a lot of notes on some cool strategies and tips in this episode. Enjoy this episode with Destaney.
Kevin King:
Look who it is. It’s the fabulous Destaney Wishon, how are you doing? I’m so excited to finally get you here on the AM/PM Podcast with me.
Destaney:
I am so excited to be here. I think it’s always fun when we get together because we’ve been in the space for so long and it’s great just being able to catch up.
Kevin King:
I remember when I first heard your name I don’t know, it was probably 5-6 years ago or maybe a little bit longer I was like there’s this girl that’s doing some PPC, her name is Destaney and it’s not spelled like the way the spelling checker actually tries to make it spell. And so I listened to something that you did. I was like, oh, that was pretty good, but now you’re like one of the top. You’ve come up and you’ve hit the ground running and now you’re like one of the top people if not the top in the entire Amazon PPC world.
Destaney:
Well, thank you. I mean, it’s scary up here. I’m waiting for the fall. I’m not gonna lie every single day.
Kevin King:
Well, there might be one person that you said that you worshiped, that she’s speaking at BDSS with you.
Destaney:
Melissa.
Kevin King:
Because I remember when you were, like, I said that she’s speaking. You’re like, oh my God, that’s like she’s like royalty when it comes to, but you’re up there with her. I mean, both of you are super smart when it comes to this.
Destaney:
Women’s National Women’s Appreciation Day. National Women’s Day, I think was in the last week, and it was really cool seeing all of the posts and the content. But one of the reasons I loved Melissa she had a very similar journey, do I feel, like what mine was, but she obviously 10X her journey. She started as an Amazon advertising specialist right, that’s what she was fantastic for. She built her network within and then she grew into the entrepreneur that she is today and that’s kind of the area I’m trying to walk the line of like what I’m known for is PPC, like that’s all my content, all my education, and I’m trying to slowly grow into the entrepreneur that doesn’t leave that network. So, it’s difficult trying to balance both. I mean, amazon moves so damn quick that every single week there’s something new that’s rolling out and I’m like trying to dive into EOS, trying to dive into hiring and training, but also not miss any of the updates and it’s a little stressful, I’m not going to lie.
Kevin King:
I mean I love it that there’s more women now coming in and out, because I used to get pushed back on my BDSS events Like Kevin. Where’s the women’s speakers? You got one token woman.
Destaney:
You’re like where are they? Like they’re not in the community.
Kevin King:
One of them I had zero and it wasn’t because I didn’t try. It’s like I asked 4 I think it was 4 or 5 at the time and like two or two. One of them wasn’t available and two of them were like I don’t feel I’m worthy, I don’t want to. You know that’s a high-quality stage.
Destaney:
I panicked and backed out once.
Kevin King:
Yeah, you actually. I think that you might have been one of them.
Destaney:
You were the first person to ever ask to put me on stage because I was speaking at the virtual summit, and I panicked and said no because I felt the same way. I was like you know, it is a high-caliber mastermind, you have always done a great job of driving like a specialty talent in the space. And I freaked out and I said no. And I talked a little bit about that journey. At Prosper this year they did a women’s networking event and I ended up like jumping on stage and I was like I was so insecure for the longest time, even to this day I mean, there’s all kinds of insecurities that drive what I do and it’s like I’m not worthy to be on that stage and I said no. And here we are.
Kevin King:
And now you’re going to be on the stage in May with Melissa.
Destaney:
With Melissa. I am so excited.
Kevin King:
7 other women, 9 women. 9 out of the 14 speakers are women.
Destaney:
That’s amazing.
Kevin King:
I’m really proud of that because, just you know, the business is skewed to guys as it is, it’s like 80% dudes and 20% women, and a lot of the women they just keep there. There’s a lot of smart women. They just keep their head down. You know, they’re like I’m just going to do this and I don’t only want to be out there, or they’re intimidated by it, and so it’s really cool to see how this is evolving and I think it’s an important thing we need. It can’t just be a bunch of bros and a fraternity, we need the representation.
Destaney:
Someone’s got to bring a little bit of feminine energy, because, let me tell you, I have been in a few of those rooms and there are men out there that lead with more confidence than I have ever had in my entire life and I’m like you’ve been doing this for a tenth of what I have and yet you are 20 times more confident than I am. So it’s also just different energy. I’m going to be honest, like watching a lot of what Melissa’s done. It’s a lot of authentic relationship building and I feel like that was always more of my narrative and it’s definitely held me back. I mean, it’s taken me 6 years to finally say yes to Kevin King and make sure I’m speaking on stage, and it’s only after I’ve spoken at Prosper Accelerate Unbox. I’m like I’m finally worthy just now.
Kevin King:
You were worthy back then, but now you finally realized you were worthy when I asked you several years ago. But now, so how do you like you said, this is constantly changing. How do you stay on top of it? I mean, you’re on LinkedIn, you’re on Facebook, you’re in the BDSS WhatsApp group I don’t know what that question? I can’t even keep up with the damn thing. And you like, anytime someone’s got a PPC, you’re like you must have like a little radar. Do, do, do, do, skip, skip, skip, skip. That’s the one I need to answer. And you’re like
Destaney:
I love being in the groups. I truly do. It’s like so much fun to me. That’s. The only reason I still have time for it is because it brings me so much enjoyment like helping people out. But I’m going to be honest, I don’t know how brand builders do it. I don’t know how generalists do it. I think that they’re just much better. Maybe hiring or outsourcing than I am. I still stay in Ad Console consistently and I do think it’s probably held me back on the entrepreneurial side, but I’m so passionate about the industry I mean I’m in Ad Console probably 5 times a week, still logging in looking for new updates, and I’m not managing accounts like my team does all of that. But I’m still heavily involved in the Amazon advertising side because, like all of my reputation is built on being that expert and all of our leads are built on, typically, my content and education, so I feel like I can’t step out. So that’s how I learn is by being hands on keyboard.
Kevin King:
No, that’s awesome. I think that’s so many people actually. They move on, they lose touch. A lot of people that are teaching like so-called gurus are people that either had a failed Amazon business or they exited and they haven’t logged in the Seller Central in 5 years and they’re telling people this is how you do it, and I think that’s super important and that gives you that authenticity and that credibility, like you said, and it’s very, very important, and I’m sure your team is probably bringing you stuff, too, that you might not have. You’re like hey, have you heard about this? You’re like, no, what is that? And you go in there and you understand it and you play with it. You’re like that’s pretty cool. All right, now I get it. Now I can teach this or show this to others.
Destaney:
Definitely, you know, something I’ve also started to love a lot more is content creation. In terms of podcasting, webinars, I feel like it’s almost forced me to hack my learning curve, because if I bring amazing people on my podcast or I speak on podcasts, you’re achieving two things You’re producing content for the agency and I can redistribute that everywhere, but I’m also learning from the person I’m speaking to. So that’s been a good way that I’ve been able to like hey, how can I check off the content creation for the company? But continue to learn is by just hopping on more of this style of content.
Kevin King:
But as an agency too, you have a major advantage Because me as a seller and I still sell I have three and if I’m in there digging around in my PPC, I’m seeing what I’m doing and what my specific to my niche and my brands, but at Better than AMS, which you help co-found right.
Destaney:
Yes, yes.
Kevin King:
You guys have I don’t know how many, but probably tens of, not hundreds of accounts that you’re logging into and you see this whole spectrum of stuff. So you know that, OK, this technique really only works in beauty. It doesn’t work anywhere else. This works across the board. This is what I were seeing. It gives you a major advantage.
Destaney:
Yeah, for sure. I think this year we’ll be around $100 million worth of spend. That’s across pretty much every single category, every ad type, every match type, different style of brands, whether it’s product launches or more established brands, and there is a ton of differences and I think once you get those reps in, it really helps you understand of, like, what is something that’s different per brand or what’s something that you’re not doing wrong. Like I still speak to so many brand owners and you get so caught up in just your own brand or the biases that you saw from managing your own brand. That kind of bringing in that external perspective can be really valuable, even if you don’t end up outsourcing, just bringing in that second opinion to be like, hey, you know this is wrong because of how it was set up, not because of the actual ad type that’s running along those lines.
Kevin King:
Is that something you get from an audit? Like if I was going to approach like, ok, I’ve been running my PPC and I’m thinking about using agencies, but I’m not sure if I really want to do that. But what you’re basically saying is that go ahead and call up a couple of agencies and let them do an audit on your account, because a lot of times they’ll do a free audit, right? Yeah, yeah, for sure, and then they might actually make a suggestion or two like OK, is that kind of what you’re saying?
Destaney:
Exactly Now. I may get some heat for this, because whether or not you should offer free audits is coming up across the board, not very scalable. We’ve actually changed our wording on our website instead of free audit, which we’ve always done, we changed to see if you qualify for an audit. Because I ran into that as well. I’d hop off a podcast and we’d get like 50 people reaching out and we’re like we can’t provide the in-depth audit that we expected on this. But that’s exactly what I mean is bringing a consultant, bringing someone. When you and I got started, it was sponsor product auto campaigns and you would harvest them and there was not a lot of complexity and most of it could be ran with a software. There was not a lot of strategy behind it. But nowadays Amazon’s giving us the ability to run TV ads directly from Ad Console. I can start a sponsored TV ad with no minimums. Right now you have custom images and lifestyles and retargeting and it’s so much more strategic where you almost can’t rely on a software. So, even if it’s not 100% being outsourced, you need that secondary opinion just to figure out is there anything that you’re missing or is there anything that should be changed within your account?
Kevin King:
What is it that people always say, Kevin, can you recommend an agency to me, a PPC agent? I’m tired of figuring out this math. It’s just, I don’t know, ACoS, blockos, ROAS, what. It’s just confusing to me.
Destaney:
All the acronyms.
Kevin King:
I hate it. All I’m doing is giving Amazon money and I can’t figure this out. I’m going to go to an agency. I always say in my opinion there’s a lot of good agencies out there, but it always really depends on who the person is that you get at that agency, every agency, they have their SOP’s, they have some or better than others and they have the standard ways of teaching. But a lot of times, is agency A better than agency B? Maybe, not necessarily, because at B there’s one dude, good woman or guy that you got. What do you recommend when someone’s trying to find an agency? What makes one better than another? How do you do that?
Destaney:
Yeah. So I think there’s kind of two different areas that I would like to look at this from. One brand side, of course. So, as a brand, I think a lot of people forget that you get what you pay for as an agency, right, I still hop on calls and people are trying to compare my pricing to a software pricing and I’m like, if you want to never talk to my team, 100% all match your software rate. If you want a strategic manager who’s gonna make decisions based off your business needs, you’re gonna have to pay for that. Now, for me personally, I have a full onshore team and I made that decision because a lot of the brands we were working with work strategic brands, typically doing around $10 to $50 million a year, right, so they kind of need that conversation, that touch point. We typically have like bi weekly or monthly calls. We’re diving into the needs of your business. But brands would still come to me and be like, “hey, I need Pacvue Adtomic pricing if I’m gonna work with you” and I’m like “No”, so I think that’s the biggest thing up front to know as a brand, if you’re gonna work with an agency, to make sure you’re able to pay for the talent that’s gonna be on the account. The second thing is to make sure you’re talking to the people that are gonna be on the account prior to ever signing a contract. You can hop on with me and I can sell you the world because I’ve done nothing but this for seven years and I can answer every incremental Amazon advertising question, but I’m not gonna be. Who’s managing your account? So one of the things that we do which makes it difficult to scales I put my account manager on the sales calls before it deals ever close so that way they’re aware of the sales that I’m pitching in the brand is aware of who’s gonna be managing in that relationships there?Again, that’s not scalable. We cannot work with everyone. So if I’m switching to the agency point of view, I’ve had to start saying no a lot more. You know I want to help every brand. That’s why I hop on podcast and ask me anything in webinars because I want to make that scalable. But I cannot sign every brand because I pay onshore talent that doesn’t turn in those salaries to make sure I have great agency retention rates are pretty high and I need to make sure that that’s being reflected on the contracts or else I’m gonna be out of business, right. So I have to say no to brands that aren’t ideal for me and that’s been really difficult I’ve had. I’ve had someone go on LinkedIn and say, like “Better AMS is cocky and won’t work with you if you’re smaller or a new seller.” Like well, it’s not because we’re cocky, it’s because we’re managing strategy and I want that type of relationship. I’m not a software. New sellers probably don’t need a strategic agency, right. So as an agency again, it’s like how in depth we audit and how well we know our ideal client profile to make sure we’re accommodating the pricing and the relationship that’s gonna be on every account.
Kevin King:
I was just at a think tank actually couple weeks ago here in Austin and there’s some agency guys that there weren’t necessarily PPC, but they were agency guys and four of them were just talking around houses, the fly on the wall, listen to them talk on this courtyard and they were talking about the pricing models for agencies and they’re saying one of two of them were actually saying the other two are ended up agreeing like we’re switching from from a percentage based thing to a flat rate based thing because it just becomes a hassle. We just we, you know, on the percentage based deal, if we’re successful, it becomes it’s good for us as an agency that we make more money, but then the clients like, wait a second, I’m giving you too much money. I’m gonna take it to somebody else. They end up taking it to somebody else, who ends up screw it up and they ended up coming back going. I’m so sorry, I didn’t mean to leave you in the first place. Can you please fix this? They fix it and then they leave again Because it’s good becomes too much. Yeah, so what’s from an agency point of view, how do you handle the flat rate or the percentage or a combination of both?
Destaney:
So for better AMS, better media, we do flexible pricing. And there’s a few different things that again, I’ve led sales for six years, so I’m very familiar with what the industry thinks. The majority of agencies have to build in percentage of spend because the softwares are charging percent of percentage of spend. Right, if you go to again take a PACVUE or whoever, most of them have a percentage of spend model, which means the agency that’s utilizing software has to build that in on top of their pricing. What I will say is I do try to build in some form of incentive based pricing, whether it’s percentage of spend, percentage of sales or renegotiation of contract, because what it was brands don’t realize Is ideal scope creep because Amazon advertising is releasing 20 different features a year and brands want me to run those features, whether it’s sponsored TV or Amazon posts or custom images. If my pricing doesn’t change but I’m doing more work because of Amazon, my margins are decreasing year over year. Or if a brand is launching 5 to 10 new products a year, then typically my scope is again decreasing to accommodate the brand’s growth. So I’m just really transparent with the brands I work with and I’m like hey, we do offer flexible pricing. If you want a flat rate model, it’s perfectly fine, but I’m going to build in a renegotiation period depending on how complex Amazon gets, or again we’ll do an incentive based. I do not like a percentage of profit as an agency. I’m going to be completely transparent or total revenue growth. I know that’s pitched by a lot of people in the space of the ideal model, but too much is out of my control. I just manage ads. If your product absolutely tanks and your profit tanks, should I be de-incentivized because of that? Like, I don’t think so, but that’s obviously a hot argument in the in the space.
Kevin King:
So you said that all your talent is onshore, meaning in the US, right. All first strategic account managers are onshore, so all the key talent is here, not in the Philippines or somewhere, so it’s top tier and you’re paying. You’re paying for that, yeah, versus a lot of people it’s job off to somebody in India, Pakistan there’s some smart people where they don’t get me wrong, but, but there’s also sometimes you get what you pay for, or two. What is it that you’re seeing? When people come to you, when it comes to PPC, that’s like oh my god, here’s another one of these. What was everybody screwing up out there that’s listening? That’s like you guys, come on, you got to get this right. I mean this, this is a fundamental thing, or this is something basic. And every time when you’re doing an audit, you see this happen online and you just wish, like, could people just get this right. It would help them so much.
Destaney:
I want to give a little philosophical on expectations but before diving into that I’ll give my top three is not expanding to all of the ad types available to them. Having misconceptions around sponsor brands, sponsor display that’s kind of first and foremost Sponsored products should only drive around 75% of your sales if you’re utilizing your other ad types appropriately. The second big one, I’ll throw out is not truly understanding display, whether it’s sponsored display or DSP. I think Amazon did not roll out those ad types incredibly well four to five years ago or when AMG was a thing back in the days. So a lot of people have misconceptions around what DSP actually is. The third one I will say is not having a great keyword harvesting or bid management system in place. We still see that almost across the board. That’s the three highest level, like you can quickly go audit on your own. Philosophically, I will say, not understanding how much the platforms change from when you and I got started. Right. Amazon advertising makes up so much more of Amazon’s revenue, makes up so much more of search that people are still going into it expecting to see the 2% TACoS or 20% ACoS back in our days, and nowadays that’s almost not possible unless you’re doing a great job of building a brand off platform. It’s just a lot more competitive and a lot more pay to play, and a lot of people don’t realize why that matters. So those are the things that I’ll throw out. I’ll stop there.
Kevin King:
What are you most excited about when it comes, you’ve mentioned, like the Prime TV ads, some of the things that Amazon has spent, now they’re doing, you can take posts and you can make them into ads and all there’s all. Like you said, it’s constantly they’re testing things. What are you most excited about that nobody’s paying attention to that you think they should, that has maybe won’t pan out, but you think that, man, this could be something real here.
Destaney:
You know, I would say, like creativity in general and brand building, amazon’s giving us so much more opportunity, for, like Kevin, you’ve been an actual marketer and brand builder outside of the Amazon space prior. Right. The fact that, like you, can give sellers the opportunity to go run a national TV campaign with no minimums within their advertising console can be a huge opportunity. If Amazon does it right, if they start giving sellers more access to data, you know, historically something that maybe would have cost someone $20 to $30,000. You can go launch a $5,000 campaign immediately and show up on Twitch or Free Video or Prime sponsored spot, right? That, I think, is going to be insanely powerful for, like people who understand traditional marketing mentality and I’m going to stop there because I’m curious to hear your thoughts on that.
Kevin King:
What about the creative side of that? So I mean dish and some other people have been, they’ve had that were, I think, on dish like 10 years ago you could buy a little ad spots that would run in front of something and there you know, Roku’s done that, a few others have done it and now Amazon’s doing it and it’s a great opportunity. But most people you gotta create in different way. That kind of advertising is different than direct response. You can do direct response. But it’s different thing and it is a different budget, a different level of photography and everything. I think that could be a stomach lock. I think it’s a great opportunity. I think that could be a stomach lock. It’s a great way to test and instead of just you know when in the old days you run an infomercial and so I’m gonna sell my, my new George Foreman Grill, I would pick, you know, people always start with like Indiana. There’s like 10 cities around the US that were demographically representative of the US, they would go into these 10 cities, spend 20, 50 grand and test and run late night commercials are on Saturdays or weekends and see what worked. And if they worked they knew they could scale it like okay, if it worked in the city of Indiana work and it worked here in Phoenix and work wherever we can scale this nationally. We know exactly how much this is gonna make. If it didn’t work, we know, okay, go back to the board and redo the commercial. Just cancel this product. That was shooting. You just hoping that people were tuned in now with Prime and everything they can target specifically like these are the 5000 people. It’s not like okay, here’s an audience of 5000, see how many of them like your commercial. These the 5000 people that should like your commercial, every single one of them, and they can layer on. It’s a powerful direct marketing thing that I don’t think a lot of people fully understand. And so going in and actually spending a little money on create proper creative for that and do a little testing, it might be a little trial and error at first. Figure out what would you do, but I think it’s major for the people that are serious players and have the budget to do that. It doesn’t take the budget, like you said In the past around a good DR campaign you might cost you 300 grand, unless and without a celebrity. You know, if you have a celebrity you pay them. Royalties are paying them a fee, but by the time you shoot it, produce it, edit it. Now you can do the same thing for 5, 10, 15, maybe 20, I mean if you can go overboard. But I think that’s the barrier. Those type of things can’t just be what you do for Instagram.
Destaney:
Yeah I completely agree. I will say I think creative is something that has been unlocked for the general population just due to small things like having access to an iPhone. I mean, we’ve seen all the influencers who have built 20 million followers doing content off their phone at home. So I think that’s where it’s up to a brand to get creative on who they’re connecting with. Like you no longer have to connect with maybe George Foreman or all of your traditional celebrities who you need to work really hard to get in contact with. Now you have that accessible, you can write, reach out to the right influencers who are gonna do video for you at a much cheaper rate. But again, it’s still a barrier. I think that traditional selling model is really scrappy, really lean, and this is where AI is gonna be advantageous, and you know being able to connect with people is a lot more advantageous. But no longer like the me to products. What’s gonna be successful? Amazon wants to see true brand builders that are connecting with that audience and I think the data they’re unlocking to your point of how great are you can get that. Targeting is also a major advantage that I’m excited about in this year AMC. I know it’s like a major buzzword and not appropriate for everyone. But why I’m so excited about AMC is because Amazon’s giving us data that they’ve never given us before. No, it’s probably not best for every single brand or anyone spending less than you know fifty grand a month but Amazon’s unlocking that and they’ve never given us those types of insights before.
Kevin King:
It’s scared a lot of other media companies. When Amazon announced that you can start doing like Prime TV is a lot of people on mass and avenue that were like this is they’re excited, but the same time I wait, wait a second, they can. They got some massive data that they can blow us out of the water and other networks. NBC can’t compete with that so that you know someone like a NBC’s can be a shoot. Maybe we need to buy Temu or something. We need this kind of data because everything is moving, the entertainment and shopping are moving together with TikTok shop, I mean on social, with Amazon now doing like the Black Friday Football game and then doing all that. And they just what was it Paramount paid a $120 million to broadcast one NFL game and try to get you know subscriptions to 599 a month subscriptions and they claim it worked. I don’t know it sold that many, but it’s evolving for online and offline or merging, and I think a lot of people are still stuck, like you said, in this little Sponsored Ads thing and that’s PPC.
Destaney:
I mean, just think about it being able to run a commercial and say, hey, I want to target everyone who in the last 365 days purchased cat food and is between the ages of 25 and 30 and also makes this amount of money. Amazon has all of that shopper history combined with all the audience data you would get from a META or Google, and then you layer in the media company that they’re growing into and it’s going to be crazy. If you have the right creative, you’re going to be able to serve an add to someone directly within their path to purchase that’s customized for them.
Kevin King:
You can go down to that cat example. You can even Amazon probably even knows what color the hair of the cat is. You can make sure you don’t have a black cat because this is targeting all the people that have Gray cats or brown cats or whatever.
Destaney:
Like no Procter & Gamble, no Johnson & Johnson, no general meals is going to have the turnaround time to accommodate that right. They have to have every commercial or creative approved by legal department, by a marketing department, from a risk perspective. I think it typically takes for some of those brands that we work with I mean a 3 month turnaround on creative, versus a seller can get that done within 48 if they really wanted to. I mean it’d be a fast turnaround. But the approval speeds like that is the advantage of a seller is being able to go to market with a lot more granular targeting than a large enterprise company who’s traditionally bought. You know national media campaigns that are a broad shotgun approach.
Kevin King:
But is this for the guy who’s doing a million dollars a year on Amazon or is this above his pay grade? Is this more for the big brands and the big Ten, eight figure, nine figure sellers, or is this something that some guys you know doing selling a board games million, million dollars a year could do?
Destaney:
Yeah, I would say the key differentiator is a brand builder. Even a small brand could go and run that. If you tell me you want a legitimate brand, right, maybe you’re in a boutique store, maybe you’ve done a little bit D2C and you’re only doing a million a year. If you can go all in cost maybe $20,000, it’s an opportunity to build a brand for sure. But if you’re a seller and you’re just wanting to sell products and not build a brand, and no, it’s a 100% not for you.
Kevin King:
So, on Prime TV do you have to drive any direct response back to amazon, or can I run something for my brand? Say it’s available on Amazon, also get it locally in Walmart or do I have to drive everything back to Amazon?
Destaney:
So you don’t have to drive back to Amazon but Amazon is tracking branded search metrics. I don’t think they’re going to let you drive to Walmart I’m not a 100% sure on that approval process actually but you run the general campaign and then the Amazon data they’re giving you is whether or not a customer then goes to Amazon and types in your brand name. That’s kind of the key metric that they’re giving you. AMC gives you a little bit more. But I’m pretty sure you could run a general campaign, not driven directly to Amazon, just general commercial. You will see a lift externally on your in store sales or your D2C store sales.
Kevin King:
What about now? You know, for launching used to be, we had search find by, we had a giveaway services, we had all that stuff. But a lot of people are saying now the way to launch is to actually use PPC. What are, get some vine reviews and then use PPC. Get, try to get a few fine reviews. You have a little bit of traction and then use PPC and just understand that you’re gonna be pan through the nose in the beginning because you don’t have reviews, you don’t have feedback, you don’t have whatever. What are your thoughts about that? Is that a legitimate strategy and, if so, what’s the best way to go about it?
Destaney:
I feel pretty confident that I coined this strategy in the space. I’m not going to lie and the reason I came up with it is because I worked in the search find by days. When I first got started working with Amazon sellers, I was personally running their Facebook campaigns that were driving to like a canonical URL landing page that would cycle through 4 to 5 keywords. So we at the time we would do a 90% off Facebook ad to a really wide audience and since it was a 90% off product, everyone would click on the landing page. And then we had search find by of “Hey go type in women’s college in here.” And I set up that funnel and obviously there was a bunch of terms of service changes. My role changed, where now I’m working with a little bit more established brands who can’t risk walking that line. So I was thinking of, like “Hey, why did a Search Find By work?” And it was like well, I drew a bunch of volume to a keyword which sent a really strong signal to Amazon that that keyword is relevant for that product. But it’s not just volume. The secondary part of that was the 90% off, and the 90% off inflated conversion rates and I think a lot of people maybe missed that stuff and that Amazon advertising, or Amazon in general, is driven by data. So you need high amount of sales to prove that that keywords relevant and conversionary. Amazon doesn’t want a bad customer experience. They want everyone who clicks on a product more than likely buy the product. It’s mutually beneficial for everyone. So I was thinking of, like wait, what’s the highest conversion traffic in e-commerce? And it’s really sponsored product ads when you look at relative to the other markets. And then how do you get really precise with the keywords that you’re inflating? Also, PPC exact match. So we started building out these campaigns and I ran a case study almost two and a half years ago where we took $60,000 and spent $60,000 on one term in a like a 48 hour period, and we were able to increase our organic rank from number 8 to number 3, which is a huge jump on the page because that puts you above the fold. You’re now above the video ad and the sponsored product carousel and that was like the most eye-opening case study. Now, our advertising conversion rate was 35%. Most brands don’t have that, but it really proved the concept. You drive high volume to a keyword and you have an amazing conversion rate. Amazon will improve your organic rank in stop.
Kevin King:
Do you need to do that now that you can do 90% off coupons like that, do you need to do that with a lower price to boost that conversion? So if my target is 19.95, should I put it at break even or even a loss as a loss leader, to get it at 9.95, just so? It’s such an incredible deal that, even though it doesn’t have reviews, what’s 10 bucks? You know the customer and I I’ll take a chance for 10 bucks.
Destaney:
I won’t say specifically on like lowering your prices, but I think the philosophy you hit on is perfectly spot on. You have to convert better than the category and if you’re listing doesn’t offer a competitive advantage better than the rest of your competitors, then you’re going to have to commoditize your product and compete on price. So 100% lowering your price is an option to inflate conversion rates. But at the end of the day I’m a believer just produce a better product, create a better listing than everyone else and then pay to drive that money, so you don’t have to race to the bottom on pricing. But that’s a more of a philosophical debate and within a tactic, no, I agree.
Kevin King:
People always ask me, Kevin, how do I get more reviews? I said to have a good product yeah, sell more, increase the odds because there’s a certain number there and to have a good product. But how do I get more reviews? I just told you.
Destaney:
Exactly, In that timing. That’s another important part. That why you mentioned the loss leader aspect, and it’s so important because time is a huge variable. It is a flywheel, right? The more volume you’re driving, the more likely someone’s going to leave a review because you’re driving more units. The more reviews you get, the better your conversion rate. The better conversion rate the more volume you’re going to drive, and that’s kind of the mentality that we’re looking at when we run these ranked campaigns. If you can’t afford to drive $100,000 in one month, okay, let’s drive $10,000 over 10 months, and it’s going to be a lot more. It’s going to take you a lot longer to rank right. That’s the part that I think people also forget. They just want to inflate all of that traffic in a short period of time. It doesn’t really work like that. It’s a flywheel that takes time.
Kevin King:
Yeah, some of those people are the people that were around when we started and you could rank in two days.
Destaney:
Yeah, I’m still breaking past those, those days. I’m telling you.
Kevin King:
I’m watching like, “Okay, I’m going to be ranked number one two days from now and I’m good.”
Destaney:
Yeah, I am thankful I’ve been in this space. I cannot imagine a new marketer hopping in and hopping on a call and being like “I used to do this. Can you do this?” And like so much has changed.
Kevin King:
And a lot of those people back then, you know, some of them exited their companies that started 2014, 2015, when it was easy. They exited their companies during the aggregator rush and some of them have tried to do it again and they don’t know what they’re doing and they fail miserably. I’ve seen that over and over and over with a lot of people and it it comes back to the fundamentals and, like you said, sometimes it’s a patience game. If you’re, are you building a brand or you willing to wait this out? This is not a get rich quick. It’s not a quit your job next month because you started selling on Amazon. This is a process and it takes time to build a true brand and to build momentum. And that’s where what? What’s your philosophy when you’re starting with a new product on? Do you target the big keywords or do you start small and target the really long tells and then work your way up to the big keywords?
Destaney:
I think it depends on budget, if we’re being honest, and whether or not they can compete on the big keywords. Everyone thinks they can compete on the big keywords and then you look at their conversion rate data and it’s like you cannot. So, we recommend going long tail if you can justify that longer game mentality right? If someone comes to me and they’re like, hey, I need to be a $300,000 a month in sales on this brand new launch, then we’re going to go really aggressive on some of those more aggressive sales driving keywords. In general, long tail always has the better conversion rate because it’s more precise and it’s typically much cheaper, so it’s easier to rank well organically. But then you’re going to get a trade off in lower volume. But again, that’s okay because lower volume is fine If it’s more profitable in the beginning.
Kevin King:
I think it was Aaron Cordovez that showed a little video on, was it LinkedIn or somewhere? And I think I featured it in my new product
Destaney:
It’s Brand metrics.
Kevin King:
You show. You said it, you mentioned it earlier about how to know how you compare to the industry if your conversion rate is lower, and a lot of people don’t know that. Can you explain how to do that, how to actually compare, like, where am I now compared to this thing? If not equal to or greater than them, I’m going to have a hard time on my PPC.
Destaney:
Yeah. I’ve actually spoken with the product team who built this product. I flew out to Amazon and helped discuss kind of what the roadmap looked like because in my opinion it’s one of the biggest missing pieces in Amazon advertising consoles connecting your organic insights with your advertising insights. Like all the sellers speak the language of TACoS. Amazon does not. They don’t necessarily realize because their teams are so siloed.
Kevin King:
They speak bananas, right?
Destaney:
Yeah, they throw it out there, the gold one, Like. So if you go into Amazon advertising console, in the top left hand corner, you’re going to see a tab that is it’s either insights or planning or brand metrics. I think it’s insights and planning now. You’re going to click on Insights and Planning and then you’re going to click on Brand Metrics and it’s going to show you a dashboard that looks a little overwhelming, but there’s going to be a little blue link that says see more detailed metrics. You click on that and you can actually change your subcategory to get pretty niche. So like, let’s say, I’m selling vitamin C supplements, I can click on vitamin C supplements and what it’s going to show me is my conversion rate compared to category median and category top. Which is amazing and why this is valuable is it’s showing you your organic data and your advertising data combined. A lot of people think it’s just advertising. It’s not. It’s retail insights and advertising insights and this lets you know if you’re actually selling a product that’s up to par compared to the category. If your conversion rate is lower, you should not be running ads because people are not converting. If your conversion rates higher, you should be spending more money than the category because you’re doing better than everyone else. Other small callouts, as this page also shows you detail page views relative to the category. So maybe you think you’re doing better than everyone else. Go look at your detailed page views. If they’re lower than the category, it means someone else is driving a lot more traffic and a lot more opportunity than you. There’s also like lifetime value a little bit. It gives you a subscribe and save insights, add to cart insights and branded search insights. But I’ll keep it short.
0:39:41 – Kevin King:
What do you think about spending money on outside traffic? You’re an expert on Amazon and within the United States you’re a big fan of the Amazon ecosystem. But Google drives about 25% of Amazon’s outside traffic and now TikTok. A lot of people are trying to spend ads and boost posts and stuff there. Just get that branded search, Not so much link back, but go search for brand plus keyword, kind of like the old search find buy in a way, and there’s some people having great success there. What are your thoughts on outside advertising on Amazon?
Destaney:
Big, big fan. What I always tell people is it really depends on, like, what that overall cost per acquisition is. I mean I work in supplements and we see $40 cost per clicks on all of the top keywords.
Kevin King:
Cost per clicks, not per sale. Just to clarify listen cost per click with what kind of conversion rate?
Destaney:
Top brands will see a 40 to 50% conversion rate, but that means they’re automatically taking a loss.
Kevin King:
So, 80 bucks on top like the number one best performing. It’s costing them $80 to get a sale and PPC on Amazon. Wow.
Destaney:
Now little tiny asterisk supplement brands do pay a repeat purchase LTV game, right. So if you buy the product four times, it makes sense. But when you’re dealing with those CPCs there’s nothing you can do. At the end of the day, the competitors are setting the market for those costs. So either bid lower and get a lot less traffic or you bid high and take a loss, right? So when we’re dealing with that, we start having the conversation of maybe we should be spending more money off platform and driving it to Amazon if it’s cheaper. Now, almost across the board, conversion rates are a lot lower. I mean upwards of half because if they’re on Amazon, they’re planning on buying. So if they click on your ad, they’re planning on buying. If they’re on Google and then driven to Amazon, they could still be in a research phase. So, your sacrificing conversion rate by going off platform. But if your cost per click is so much cheaper off platform, you can drive the same amount of traffic for the same cost. So understanding your cost per acquisition on both platforms is really important, because Amazon is driving external traffic. They can’t put any more ads on the page. So Amazon wants you to continue driving traffic off platform because at the end of the day, they’re still driving the cell and they’re benefiting.
Kevin King:
So what categories? Some people say supplements and pets are the most brutal when it comes to advertising. Would you agree with that? Or is there another category we should add to that mix? That’s like just brutal cost per clicks.
Destaney:
Supplements and pets are brutal, but you do have lifetime value. I almost think like tech is more brutal because you don’t have the lifetime values like iPhone cases or cell phone accessories. You see the high CPCs because you’re competing against everyone else or it’s a commoditized and you’re competing directly against manufacturers who can produce for a lot cheaper than you, but you don’t get the lifetime value of the repeat purchases.
Kevin King:
So how, when a client comes to you and they say they’re a supplement client, they say we want to go balls to the wall, we’re willing to spend whatever you next question said okay, we can do this, $40 per click, no problem. But what’s your LTV? And they’re like I’m not sure. How do you advise people to actually figure out an LTV on Amazon? It’s easy to do on Shopify, but how do you what are? Do you have any tips or suggestions on how? I know there’s like nozzle.ai and there’s a few tools, but what would you suggest to someone who are like well, how do I actually figure that out?
Destaney:
Yeah, I think almost across the board. If you’re willing to spend that much money, you should know this off platform because Amazon doesn’t give you a lot of insights. But at that point you can unlock some AMC insights or DSP insights to start backing into your information. I think AMC in general does give us lifetime value access because we can pull all of the hashed audiences on the organic side and figure it out. It’s pretty complex, but the same thing can be said like if you’re just running DSP, you can figure out your subscribe and save repeat purchases and then isolate that audience and figure out what your kind of averages are. Not a great answer, I would say. Probably not my best answer.
Kevin King:
What about some of the new stuff? You can now target people that abandon their carts.
Destaney:
Yeah,
Kevin King:
Like how are those there’s a several new things like that that’ve come out recently. How are those performing?
Destaney:
I pitched this idea to Melissa to start diving into at Billion Dollar Seller Summit. Actually because, working with the seller audience, the questions I used to always get around DSP was around attribution Amazon’s lying about my attribution and taking credit for things they shun it or accessibility and ads. I think that’s something Amazon’s really opened up. With AMC, as you mentioned, we can now say I want to target everyone who added my product to cart in the last 365 days but did not purchase. That’s not just advertising, that is organic data. Every person organically who added to cart did not purchase. Let me build an audience for it that I can turn into a DSP targeting type and that’s powerful. Same thing with subscribe and save. Same thing with high frequency audiences. Let me go ahead and negate every audience who has seen my ad five times and not purchased. We have the ability to create a targeting type for that.
Kevin King:
Can I create a targeting type for people that have added my competitors product to the cart and did not buy? I can come back to them and say I know you’re looking at this. Have you considered ours? Ours is actually pretty cool. It’s a little bit cheaper and it works a little bit better than the one you were concerned before.
Destaney:
I don’t think we can do add to cart. But what we can do is everyone who viewed my competitors page right. Then we can negate the audience of people who purchased within that category, which tells me they’re still in market because they’re viewing that direct competitor, my number one competitor. Maybe they sell a microphone. Let’s target everyone who viewed this microphone but did not purchase a mic in general in the last 365 days. That’s insanely, insanely granular. Let’s throw out a caveat here of the downside of this strategy is it’s a small audience if you’re not doing big numbers or don’t have a big budget right, that’s where people struggle at DSP. They want to run this granularity and then it’s $2,000 a month and they don’t see a top line sales increase. They’re like, ah, DSP is not working for me. It’s like, well, you got to spend $50,000 and have enough views to really see that type of power.
Kevin King:
What are you seeing on product targeting? Where you’re targeting your competitors, maybe you have a better review rating, a little bit cheaper price. Are you seeing a lot of success for people like let me go? Or one of the things I’ve told people in the past is target the new launchers, because new launchers have zero reviews. A lot of times they’re spending a lot of money on social or something driving traffic to it. I’ll just go sit on their listing with my 255, 4.7 star reviews when someone comes there. Oh, this one’s actually a little bit better. I mentioned that in an event one time as a little hack and actually had someone come up to me and complain. It’s like that’s not fair to us new sellers. That’s like dealing, you’re robbing from us. I’m like, hey, this is business.
Destaney:
Truly truly, that’s spot on. We typically recommend 5 different product targeting strategies. We break these out into their own campaigns because performance is really dependent on the style of strategy. We’ll do one targeting everyone with a higher price point than us. That one’s really easy to scrape, either through a tool or an ad console. We’ll create a campaign only targeting higher price point products. We’ll create a campaign targeting everyone with worse reviews than us Maybe less than four stars, new product launches, lower reviews than us, audience targeting. So we’ll go a little bit more broad and target everyone within our audience. And then re-targeting. There’s a custom strategy we do on top of that and that’s frequently bought together, which is another probably throwback to 6 to 7 years ago when people used to hack the frequently bought together. They say we’ll run a product targeting strategy, similar. Let’s say I’m selling diapers. Let me target everyone who’s viewing baby wipes or prenatals. That’s another strategy, but that one’s a little bit more difficult to drive a conversion on.
Kevin King:
What do you think about all this buzz around Amazon changing to an AI type of search? Rufus is getting panned right now as a joke by the people that have actually been able to use it. I’m sure they’re going to improve it. It’s going to come around. Then you had the stuff about Cosmo, which some people are freaking out about. Other people, like Bradley at Helium 10, says that was written by interns in 2022. They actually now work for the company. They were hired. They’re smart enough to get hired. I’ve always said that I think we are moving to an AI world on search. It’s still early, but Amazon’s not going to do a damn thing with this roll out globally until they make sure this does not affect their advertising revenue. Like you said earlier, was it $30-some-odd billion last year? They’re like that was a quarter. I think that was a quarter Last quarter, so it’s a $100-plus billion a year industry. It’s like number two I think only Meta has more or Google and Meta number two or number three. What do you see AI affecting what you do, either from a software point of view, or you haven’t taken the place of some of your onshore talent, or just going to supplement, make them more efficient. What do you see on both sides, from an agency side, managing the PPC, and from the customer side?
Destaney:
Well, for one, I would say I’m not naive that it’s going to greatly impact my personal business, which is a big reason we actually went through a rebrand. Historically, we’ve been better AMS. AMS was Amazon Marketing Services and it was heavily search-based. Better Media is the new company and the new long-term vision that’s because we’re
Kevin King:
Oh, this is the BTR. That’s what I’m talking about. Yeah, I was like, I’ve been like okay is that just the first better ATM? All right.
Destaney:
BTR Exactly.
Kevin King:
I’ve been calling you the wrong name this entire time.
Destaney:
It was a recent switch, Kevin. Most people probably don’t know.
Kevin King:
I’m supposed to be on top of things here. I’m not embarrassed.
Destaney:
But you’re spot on. It’s going to be less search-based, right. It’s going to be a lot more, I think, general media, more programmatic, more AI, more creative, which was the rebrands. But speaking specifically about Amazon, let’s say I’m selling Chapstick Right now a customer types in Chapstick, someone bids on Chapstick and shows up. There’s a relevancy filter, right? Amazon’s not going to allow someone to bid on Chapstick if they’re selling a permanent marker. The next step of that, in my opinion, is if someone types in Chapstick, the advertising auction is going to say okay, these 10 people are bidding on Chapstick, but this customer previously bought Peppermint Chapstick five times. So instead of just showing them the highest bidder, let’s also show them the Chapstick that most aligns with the person’s prior search history. So the Peppermint Chapstick is going to win that auction. Right, it’s going to be AI-influenced, based off individual purchase habits, so we’re not going to be able to necessarily influence that. And one of my favorite topics in this space is when people are like Amazon’s just trying to steal your money. That’s why they want $40 CPCs and no. Amazon’s vision is, 10 to 15 years from now, amazon’s building a media behemoth. They want to have more aligned advertising and I think that’s where AI is going to come into play. So I think it’s going to be a lot less search-based. My team’s going to be doing a lot less work with keywords and a lot more work with creatives and audiences. So that’s what we’re building within our team.
Kevin King:
Awesome. I agree with you. It’s going to be more on the intent and audience-based than it is going to be on specific keywords and how can you game the system to rank when someone else is not ranking? But part of that it’s going to take a rebuild. I think that’s part of the reason that Rufus is not working now, because the data on Amazon is not matching what they’re trying to do. It’s going to take a whole. Some of the under-workings need to change to actually make that effective and that might be a challenge to get what is there, I don’t know what the number is. Millions of active listing on Amazon. That’s Gotta be either so it may be if they may have to come out and say we’re switching to this. If you have an updated, completely updated, you’re listening to this no format, you’re not. You’re gonna be d-indexed period or something, something along those lines. And with now, with the looking at images and analyzing images, not just the metadata on images but actually what’s in this picture, you know, I think it’s gonna get to the point where if you’re selling that pink chat, that the peppermint chapstick, and your picture doesn’t show a peppermint chapstick, it says peppermint across, it’s showing the, you know the, the spearman version you may not actually show up. You know they’re gonna analyze the pictures. I believe it’s gonna get to. This is probably a little ways off, but I think it’s gonna get to that point. Or if you’re selling an umbrella and someone types in an Umbrella for the beach and your lifestyle pictures don’t show an umbrella on the beach. They show people walking through the rain or whatever, you’re not gonna show up
Destaney:
A 100% and I think there’s just so much technical capabilities that we never had right. It’s a whole change in mindset, in my opinion. We’re like 20 to 50 years ago is all about mass manufacturing and, you know, finding like the one product that everyone wanted, and now we’re gonna see a transition into finding the perfect product that everyone wants. Our ad creatives are gonna need to be perfectly built for that custom audience Because of what tech and is tech and supply chain is enabled us to unlock.
Kevin King:
This has been an awesome conversation. I think a lot of people are gonna get a lot of this. That’s why you’re in the dream 100, that’s why you know. This is why I said you’re one of the top minds in this space. You know, when you go to accelerate in Seattle and you go into, you know Jeff Cohen is hosting. I got destiny in my room talking PPC. I remember getting pissed off last year in Seattle because I wanted to come here, you talk. I get up to the room and like sorry, you can’t enter. I know that’s you. You were in there too. You can’t enter. The room’s full. I was like do you know who I am? But no, I was like damn it. So I came back like five minutes later and try to get in again like sorry, well, I saw somebody leave. No, sorry, the room is full. So this is why, like you’re one of the top in the space and you got some stuff coming in the Freedom Ticket as well that you’re doing for the brand new Freedom Ticket that’s coming out. So those of you there’s a Freedom Ticket 4.0. About to come out that we reshot the entire thing from scratch and you’re doing I’m like I can talk a little bit about the basics of PPC. I can say, okay, this is what an ACoS is, this is what is, but when it comes to the details I know I saw me you can run circles around me and so, like we got to bring in the best, so Destaney’s Taking care of that side of it. So make sure you check that out. Make sure if you need an agency to you, check out BTR, is it? What’s the website? Now?
Destaney:
Kevin King:
BetterMedia.com, and if you’re not coming to Hawaii for BDSS, you’re gonna be missing out. If PPC is something you need help with or is your bag, you got two of the smartest minds, or probably the two smartest minds in the entire space, gonna be together competing against each other on stage. In a way, they’re like who I can see it now. I don’t know who’s speaking first, but let’s say Melissa goes first. Destaney’s gonna be watching her going damn it. All right, Kevin, I got new slides.
Destaney:
I did reach out to Melissa on topics to make sure we’re fully encompassing everything you all need to know with two different topics.
Kevin King:
Yeah, I think she’s gonna. She says she might. She is still deciding, but she might talk about, like, what the Chinese are doing or something. It’s been crazy, like like white hat not black hat stuff, but some crazy techniques and things that they’re doing that we don’t understand here. That’s crushing it. So it’s gonna be. It’s gonna be awesome. What are you looking forward to most about Hawaii?
Destaney:
I’ve never been. I think that’s the biggest thing. I’m insanely excited. You do a fantastic job of putting together a really clean audience. You know, we just came off Prosper Show. I’m an advisor and one of the things that we struggle with is it’s such a broad audience you don’t know who you’re selling tickets to. You never have that problem. You do a fantastic job of curating the people that are in a room and the speakers that they want to hear, so I’m really, really excited about that.
Kevin King:
And you guys did a better job. I know I put something out on Prosper this year Because it has gone down since. It sold in 2019 and it every year. I’m like this is a way you know there’s always a couple good speakers there are I’m in fairness, there’s always a couple people that but a lot of us. It was became corporate shilling and this year, I think in part because you’re on the board and a few other people, are you giving a little more guidance and the feedback that I got from people like it was better. A lot of people like, okay, they’re honing it in and it was definitely better. I know the attendance was up like 50% or something like that, and the next year they’re moving to the convention center, so it’s. I’m actually having to move my BDSS event next year. I was gonna do at the end of March and it’s an Iceland next year and so, oh damn, now I got to move it to the first week of April.
Destaney:
I see like the five year vision.
Kevin King:
Let’s see if you run this one, you get automatically first or second. You get automatically invited to the next one.
Destaney:
I’m gonna be honest, I feel like I’m always at a disadvantage with Amazon advertising because it’s the least fun topic to discuss. Maybe that’s just me, maybe that’s my speaking, but like.
Kevin King:
You know what, Matt, he’s done well with it. There’s a lot of people it’s a BDSS that get the votes. It’s about the content, but it’s also about stage presence. So someone like Janelle always she goes up there and just wears her shorts and kicks off her flip flops and just sits on her stage and just makes fun of herself and just talk. So there’s ways and I’ve seen you do it where you make it interesting like this you made this podcast a topic that’s boring for a lot of people. It was actually interesting, so that’s part of it. And the other thing you’re gonna see in Hawaii is you know, a lot of times you go to an event, all you see is the hotel or all you see is the venue. In Hawaii, one day we’re doing an Amazing Race, like the tv show.
Destaney:
You’re doing such a good job I mean your party last year at SellerCon. I’ve told my whole team I’m like Kevin, better do the most amazing halloween party for unboxed. I’m already planning outfits with everyone.
Kevin King:
I know I we have such a great job. Yeah, we did one for Christmas, so we stuff that one up. I think you know that one. Then when I saw unbox is coming to New York’s, coming to Austin, I’m like all right, we’re on it.
Destaney:
Listen, the unboxing community is not going to know how to handle a Kevin King of it. If I being honest and I can’t wait.
Kevin King:
It’s gonna be. We have a bigger budget for this one. It’s about a $120,000 budget, and we got some really cool ideas of what we’re gonna do. It’s costume it will be announcing it soon. But yeah, It’s gonna be a night people. It’s the first night, so we’re making sure it’s after the welcome thing and it’s gonna be a really cool, cool event. Yeah, it’s gonna be awesome.
Destaney:
I can’t wait. I’m excited. Thank you so much for having me on here as well.
Kevin King:
I appreciate it, it’s been great and we’ll see you soon in Hawaii.
Destaney:
We’re counting down. I can’t wait. Thank you, Kevin.
Kevin King:
All right thanks.
Kevin King:
As you can see, Destaney is just full of massive knowledge. You might have to go back and rewind a little bit here and play back some of this Episode, because there’s just a lot of really good stuff that we covered Destaney also in the Freedom Ticket 4.0. That’s maybe out when you’re listening to this, or it’s coming out soon, if it, depending on when you’re listening to this A totally revamped Freedom Ticket. Be sure to actually check out that in Destaney’s teaching the PPC material in Freedom Ticket 4.0. We’ll be back again next week with another Great episode, but before we leave, I just got to leave you with some words of wisdom Consistency enlarges ability, Consistency in enlarges ability. See you again next week.
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